ICYMI: Larson Discusses Trump-Musk Plan to Cut Social Security on Forbes Newsroom

“[Donald Trump and Elon Musk are] out to dismantle the Social Security Administration, and there's a responsibility here first and foremost on the Republicans in Congress to call a hearing on this, as we have requested, and asked for, and to bring them before the Congress in a public hearing under oath and answer what they need this information for and what their goals are here,” said Larson. “And if, as our colleagues claim, they're not there to privatize it well, then let's put them under oath and have them swear to it, because that's not what they've said on TV. There's no special protection that the president can provide him from actually coming before Congress and telling the truth about his intent.”  

You can view the full transcript below: 

Brittany Lewis: Hi everybody. I’m Brittany Lewis, breaking news reporter at Forbes. Today, joining me now, is Congressman Larson. Congressman Larson, thank you so much for joining me again.   

Rep. Larson: Glad to be with you, Brittany.   

Brittany Lewis: You have long been one of the most vocal members of Congress when it comes to Social Security. In fact, you and I had a thirty-minute discussion on it just last year. This week, you were pretty passionate during a House Ways and Means Committee hearing on the subject. You introduced a resolution of inquiry into what you called the, "hostile takeover of Social Security by President Trump and Elon Musk.” And you accused Elon Musk of, “taking a wrecking ball to the Social Security Administration.” So, to start off the conversation, can you talk to us about your concerns?   

Rep. Larson: Absolutely. As you know, Brittany, there are over 70 million Americans that are on Social Security. And for the most part, people have a tendency to think that Social Security is just pensions, but it's not. It's not only pensions. It also takes care of spouses, dependents, widows, and also disability. In fact, it provides more disability coverage for veterans than the VA. So, it is the genius of Franklin Delano Roosevelt that came up with a safety net for entrepreneurialism and capitalism to protect citizens by allowing them to invest. This is not as, Mr. Musk calls it, “an entitlement.” This is a benefit that people have paid for and all one has to do is look on their pay stub to find that out, and on that pay stub, it says FICA. That stands for Federal Insurance Contribution. Whose? Yours. And so, it is not an entitlement. This is an insurance plan that has been paid for and entrusted with the government, so it can give you a return in your retirement, or if needed, before then, in the case of death for spousal or dependent coverage or disability. All of which has made it the number one insurance plan for the program. And by that, I mean this: it's the number one anti-poverty program for the elderly of this nation and the number one anti-poverty program for children of this country. And so, to go in there with a wrecking ball, with the idea that they are going to dismiss and close regional offices and fire people, including Inspectors General, is just absurd. And even more absurd is if you're doing that you have a responsibility to come before Congress and explain what you're up to. Why you need access to these private documents, and what is your goal, and what is your intent here? And of course, as you know, Mr. Musk now has been on TV several times, just last weekend, calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme and the president calling it a scam. And the Republicans in the Committee keep on saying, “oh no President Trump isn't going to touch Social Security, they're not going to be doing anything.” In the middle of the hearing yesterday, the DOGE came out saying they're going to stop, and they're going to try to eliminate the use of phoning into agencies. They're out to dismantle the Social Security Administration, and there's a responsibility here first and foremost on the Republicans in Congress to call a hearing on this, as we have requested, and asked for, and to bring them before the Congress in a public hearing under oath and answer what they need this information for and what their goals are here. And if, as our colleagues claim, they're not there to privatize it well, then let's put them under oath and have them swear to it, because that's not what they've said on TV.  

Brittany Lewis: I know older people — I mean, personally, my grandfather didn't have the internet. He didn't have a smartphone, so he would just have to use the phone. And I know he wasn't in the only — he's not the only senior citizen in that boat, where there would be older people who rely on the phone. So, that's one issue. Another issue is, you're asking where's Elon Musk? There was a viral moment of you in this House Ways and Means Committee asking where's Elon Musk? You said he's going to privatize Social Security. He's calling it an entitlement. In our conversation last year, on the House floor, many times you have said Social Security is not an entitlement — it's an earned benefit. So, talk to us about why you were just so passionate in that hearing.  

Rep. Larson: Well, because first and foremost, 70 million Americans rely on Social Security. Now, of those 70 million, 40% of those, Social Security is the only thing they have. Who do they have speaking for them in the United States Congress? Who will speak out on their behalf? As this Administration seeks to go out and disassemble the Social Security Administration, in doing so weaken it, prevent people from having access and getting timely service and then arrive at the conclusion that, “well Social Security isn't working, so we're going to have to privatize it.” So, they're saying that's not our intent. Well, that’s fine if that's not your intent, you have no problem then coming before the committee and answering questions under oath. And what riled me the most, of course, were the empty seats that were there. That somehow Elon Musk because he's a billionaire is above the law and doesn't have to answer to the United States Congress or the American people? That's flat out wrong, and I think every American citizen knows it as well. And there's no special protection that the president can provide him from actually coming before Congress and telling the truth about his intent.  

Brittany Lewis: During that hearing, you accused Republicans to their faces of doing whatever Elon Musk and President Trump want them to do. I'm curious in your private conversations, do they share your concerns about Social Security, about Elon Musk, about DOGE, because in my conversations with Republican lawmakers when I say, “hey, is Social Security on the chopping block? You keep publicly saying no, but is it?” They're saying things like, “let Elon Musk look into the look into it and see what happens, but I'm not — Social Security will be saved there's just a lot of fraud there.”   

Rep. Larson: They've been told not to say anything. And so, they're claiming that, well you know what's wrong about looking for fraud, abuse, and waste? There's nothing wrong with that. No Democrat has said there is. In fact, if there is fraud, abuse, or waste we'll join with them in finding it and routing it out because there's no place for it in government, but that's not the issue here. They're claiming that that's what their goal is, and our response is, if that's your goal, don't you think the American public and certainly the fourth estate and the media would be interested in it as well? And so why is there this great secret? Well could it be because you're not telling the truth? As Rich Neal said yesterday, “can we at least agree that no one 350 years old is receiving a Social Security check?” And it was ironic but meant to be so because of the absurdity, and how much push back they've gotten on their misinformation. And then Elon Musk was on TV saying, “oh yeah Social Security is the plan in which Democrats used to entice illegal immigrants into the country with the promise that they're going to give them Social Security.” Again, a boldfaced lie. That if he believes that and has proof well, by all means let's put him under oath and have that, and let's see the facts that he has to substantiate it. Because so far, they've made an awful lot of outlandish claims that are not backed by facts, and that's substantiated by The Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, many media outlets, and even the acting Commissioner that was hand- appointed by Donald Trump has said, “this is not true, and DOGE does not understand what it's doing to the operation.” I think they do understand. Their goal isn't fraud, abuse, or waste. Their goal is to dismantle it and privatize it and say it doesn't work and say it's ineffective, tell the Big Lie. And then say to the American people that's why we need to privatize it.  

Brittany Lewis: Congressman, last year you showed me some cards you give out to every member of Congress in the House and in the Senate, Republicans and Democrats alike. I think you showed me House Speaker Mike Johnson's card last year, and on the card, it says how many of their constituents in their District rely on Social Security. Do you still do that? And when you're giving them to Republicans now, I mean, what are they saying, what are those conversations like?  

Rep. Larson: They're very appreciative of the card, and I think many of them are astounded but when I go to the floor, every time I go to the floor to talk on what's called a ‘five minute,’ I also, who was ever in the chair speaking, and it's always a Republican because they control the House, I recite for them exactly what's in their District. And how many people, and on average, on average, Brittany, it's about 145,000 people per Congressional District, on average. And also, about $200 million that comes into that District monthly. I also remind them that this is why this is such a valuable program and especially in this inflationary time, and with this vast disparity gap between the ‘Have’ and the ‘Have Nots,’ that a plan that provides citizens with the monthly income, needs to be there, and we need to know that they're receiving this amount of money and what it would mean if they don't get it. It is, after all, as I like to remind our Republican colleagues, the safety net for capitalism and entrepreneurialism. The genius of Roosevelt was knowing that in a system like that, which we love and respect and admire, because we want people to take risks. We want people to be creative. We want people to be inventive, but for some reason, whatever, climate change, whatever happens, inflation, a pandemic, whatever happens, through no fault of theirs, people that are laid off or out of work — they still need to put a roof over their head and feed their families. Pay the rent. Go to the pharmacy. And as we said earlier, for 40% of that 70 million, the only benefit they have is Social Security. And so that's why it's so important. And who speaks for them if not their elected representatives? Elon Musk doesn't speak for them. He and Donald Trump don't lose a moment of sleep worrying about putting a roof over their heads, putting the meal on the table or caring for those people. They're billionaires. God bless them. They're successful. God bless them. But our mission under the Constitution is ‘We The People.’ And it's the people that were sent to Washington to represent and protect and the brilliance of Roosevelt in our system is that we know that Social Security works. It's the most popular insurance program in the nation, the number one anti-poverty program for the elderly and the number one anti-poverty program for children.  

Brittany Lewis: You mentioned earlier some comments that Elon Musk made recently on Social Security. He made them during an interview with Larry Kudlow on Fox Business. I want to read some other comments he made in that interview. He said entitlement spending is the big one to eliminate. As we know, entitlements include Social Security. They include Medicare, and Medicaid, and he said the government spends anywhere from 500 to 700 billion dollars on them. President Trump himself, Republicans themselves, all said that they're not going to cut Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, they're not touching that. Instead, they're going to look for the waste, the fraud, the abuse in there. But realistically, is there 500 to 700 billion dollars of waste, fraud, and abuse in Social Security?  

Rep. Larson: Well, this is such a conundrum, and I'm glad you asked the question because it's confounding. Number one, as you point out, if you look at the federal budget, and you were to take three specific areas, those being National Defense, those being Medicare and Medicaid and Social Security, that's over 70% of the federal budget in three programs. So, Musk has said — he's not wrong about saying where is the money being spent with regard to the federal budget — yes, indeed, it's Defense, Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. Now, how much has he been asked or directed to find by President Trump? $2 trillion, I believe, right? Now, isn't it coincidental that — what was the tax cut of 2017? The Trump Legacy. Hmmm... let's see oh, yeah that was $2 trillion. Oh yeah, and by the way, of those three major programs that we just named, does any one of them have a Trust Fund? Hmmm, yes Social Security. Oh, and by the way, how much money do you think is in the Social Security Trust Fund that has been put there by American citizens? $2.7 trillion. So, when Musk says he's going after the money, and he's following the money, believe him. It's an old adage in politics, in government — if you want to find out what's going on, follow the money — and that's what the American people need to be tuned into and why he's out, as he said clearly time and time again to privatize it. And in the same token, as you point out, Republicans have said, no President Trump has said time and again, we're not going to touch Social Security, and yet the same weekend that Elon Musk called it a Ponzi scheme — he called it a scam. And he's given him a free hand and they say, “oh yes, but he's only going after the fraud, abuse, and waste.” Well, if that's the case, why isn't he coming before our committee because we'll surely roll up our sleeves and help them find that because nobody wants to see fraud, abuse, and waste in the military, in Medicare, or Medicaid, Social Security, or any governmental program. So, you talk about a Ponzi scheme? That's the real Ponzi scheme, is that they're saying they're going to be “oh no we're not touching Social Security. We're not going after Medicare or Medicaid,” but in the same breath they're saying, but we're going to follow the money and we're going to look there, and this is where we're going to come up with the two trillion dollars the president has asked them to. They have got to be held accountable to the American people, to the United States Congress, and to the media. And it's going to be individuals and frankly, they've got the power. They control the Senate the House and the presidency. They can block us. We will continue to use every single legislative tool in our box including Resolutions of Inquiry to demand that they come before us but so should every citizen in this country. People ask what they can do? Demand that he come before Congress under oath and tell the American people where he's going to find that $2 trillion.   

Brittany Lewis: You're saying the writing’s on the wall here. There's not hundreds and hundreds of billions of dollars worth of waste, fraud, and abuse. This is all just a goal to privatize Social Security. When you say that, what does privatized Social Security even look like?   

Rep. Larson: Yes, well, again, think about this. The Trust Fund. The genius of Roosevelt. And the genius of coming up with a federal program that people pay in weekly. All you have to do is look at that pay stub, and it says FICA right on it. It's not a tax. It's an insurance premium. It says Federal Insurance Contribution. Whose? Yours and mine and every American citizens’. Albeit, except some of the very wealthy who pay nothing or circumvent the FICA rule, or are done paying on January 2^nd, into a program that everybody else pays into throughout the year. Which is why President Biden said we have to lift the cap on Social Security. Again, most citizens don't know that there's even a cap. Now, that cap rises every year. It's currently $170,000, but President Biden said we'll lift it on people over $400,000. When I hold a town hall one of the first things I do is say “raise your hand in the room if you're making over $400,000.” Funny thing about that, Brittany, I've never had anyone raise their hand. Well, except once in East Harford, my hometown, and I looked at the person and who I know. I said, “you're making over $400,000?” They go “no, but it felt good to raise my hand,” and so I had to give them credit for that, but the point being, just by having that group pay their fair share, we not only extend the solvency of Social Security, but we're able to add benefits. Here's the other thing that Americans should be screaming about. When was the last time Social Security benefits were enhanced?   

Brittany Lewis: I actually know this from our conversation from last year. Over 50 years ago.  

Rep. Larson: Exactly. Richard Nixon was President of the United States. Some will say, “well wait a minute didn't Ronald Reagan and Tip and..” yep. I said yep that happened, but they didn't enhance the benefit. They extended solvency. How did they do that? They did so back in ‘83 by raising the age from 65 to 67. Here's the catch. For every year you raise the age, that's a 7% cut in benefits. So, when you hear our colleagues on the other side saying they want to raise the age to 70, that's a 21% cut in your benefits. How does it make any sense, if people are living longer, and they are, that they should be living on less? Shouldn't we be working to make sure that the Social Security program, and the Trust is not only solvent, but is also able to expand and provide benefits that people need. And Congress has that responsibility, but it hasn't done that in more than 50 years. People should be outraged. And I'll tell you who's getting outraged and what's causing people to call their offices and Congressional offices are the 10,000 Baby Boomers a day who become eligible for Social Security and are saying, “hey wait a minute, what happened to my Social Security, and when am I getting these benefits? And they're now telling me that they could push this off to age 70? Or that the last time these were modified or enhanced was 1971?” Some would say well no, but didn't, last December, didn't Congress include people that were excluded in 1983?  Indeed it did. And Congress, you know, passed a bill that eliminated what's commonly referred to as WEP and GPO which prevented municipal employees, teachers, firefighters, and police officers, which amounted to about 2.9 million people in the country, from getting Social Security benefits that they had paid into. That's the good news. The bad news is though it wasn't paid for. And so, President Trump has also said “I'm protecting Social Security. Not only am I protecting it, I'm going to give everyone on Social Security a tax cut.” Well, that same tax cut provision, as we discussed last year, is in our proposal, but there's a big difference: we pay for it. And in doing so, make sure that the Trust Fund stays intact, and people still get the tax relief they richly deserve. Not to pay for it, is a $998 billion hit to the Trust Fund. And where does that come from? Out of the very people who participate in Social Security, over 35 million, who it's the only thing that they have. Sadder still, in the wealthiest nation in the world, five million fellow Americans, most of whom are women, get below poverty level checks from the federal government, from an insurance plan that they entrusted to their government to take care of them, and they're getting below poverty level checks. Why? Because Congress has not acted. Now, if Congress doesn't want to pay them don't you think it has an obligation to say, “we're sorry, but we don't think it should be adjusted. We think that that's fair.” There's no way that that would ever happen, but if people don't vote, or if Elon Musk can get his hands on $2.7 trillion and then say, “oh well, we'll privatize this,” meaning and they'll show you examples where they can return far greater money and will benefit more people and that's what they'll tempt the American people with, but that's the Ponzi scheme. That's where the billionaires continue to get more money, and Social Security goes from being an absolute guarantee to being at risk, and you don't have to go back to 1929. You only have to go back to 2008 where people saw their 401K become a 101k. Now are there things that we could do collectively as Democrats and Republicans and strengthen the Trust Fund and work? And I've talked with actuaries and financers and people to strengthen the Trust Fund, but keep it in the Social Security Trust out of the greedy hands of the private sector, but a government program that's an absolute guarantee that can yield more than just treasury notes? Absolutely, and that's the work we should be rolling up our sleeves and doing together to make this possible and with reporting like yours and Baby Boomers taking to the phones and say, “hey what about that and oh by the way, don’t privatize my fund. I want the guarantee.” 

Brittany Lewis: Congressman, I hear how passionate you are. A lot of people saw how passionate you were earlier this week about this. I've known for a while because you and I have talked about this a year ago, but what do you think is next because as a Democrat in Congress, you're kind of at a disadvantage. Republicans control the White House, the House, the Senate, so what specifically can you do right now about Social Security because none of, not a single Republican, on the House Ways and Means Committee supported your Resolution of Inquiry. 

Rep. Larson: What we have to do is keep bringing it before the American public. You know, we have election cycles, and that's two years, but we don't have two years here because we have someone who's laser focused. President Trump fully understands, having served as president for four years, that he only has a limited amount of time, and the Republicans in Congress understand that also. That's why they're refusing to bring this before the American people, and if the American people do not protest, if they're not calling in to their District Offices, and that includes people who you know may not live in someone's District, all we need, imagine this, is three Republicans to stand up and say this is not right. We can't go through this and what will make them say that... people calling in, people stepping up, people demanding as we will continue to do, that Elon Musk come before the committee and explain. He seems to be more than willing to go on talk shows and on TV programs and tell everybody about his plan for privatization, and look, let's acknowledge that he's a very bright and capable person. Maybe a genius in some respects, but I don't care whether you're a genius, whether you're the wealthiest man in the world. You are not above the democracy, and you are answerable to the American people under our Constitution and that's what I think roils me the most is that nobody is above the law in this country and that's why they have to be answerable, and if our Republican colleagues think otherwise, they owe that explanation to their constituents and the American people. I don't believe in their heart of hearts that they do.  

Brittany Lewis: Congressman, I've kept you entirely too long, but I do have one more question if you have the time because it does seem like you've been standing on a mountain alone talking about Social Security screaming from the rooftop saying, “hey Congress hasn't acted in 50 years.” Why is no one listening? You're giving these cards out to all of your colleagues. I've talked weekly almost with AARP polling, going up to the election, Voters who are above 54 I believe, voters who were most likely to participate in the election, this is an issue that they care about the most. Why does Congress not act? Is it because it's not a sexy topic? I mean. what does that look like?  

Rep. Larson: Because it's been kicked down the can and to your point, you know both parties bear some responsibility. Having said that, this is the legacy of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Philosophically, the other side and Elon Musk are lying out how they feel about it. When President Trump says he's not going to touch Social Security, what does that mean? Does that mean he wouldn't privatize it? Does that mean that you know he wouldn't say I have another way of making this program work? I think they owe it to the American people, as do the Republicans, to bring them before Congress and get these answers, especially when Elon Musk is so brazen about coming out and saying that, in fact, this is what he intends to do. That, in fact, yep, those three programs are where the money is and of those three programs which one has a Trust Fund of $2.7 trillion in it. The American people, some may have been born at night, but not last night, and so we're well aware of this. This is something that is going to take a real Democratic national movement on people demanding. What they hope is they can get through this as fast as they can with as what they would like to say, ‘one beautiful bill,’ with no accountability, no one caring about what their true agenda is, and what they're looking at that. That can't hold in a democracy. Otherwise, we don't have a democracy. We have tyranny of the majority.  

Brittany Lewis: Congressman, a really important conversation, and as there are developments with what DOGE does with Social Security, with Medicare, with Medicaid, I hope you come back on and talk about it with me. I really appreciate the time today. Thank you so much for joining me.